Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Brock's avatar

Thrasymachus is not at all consistent, but I think the most consistent way of fleshing out his position is what we might call the "cynical view".

In every society, there is a ruling class, and they make laws that they think are in their best interests. These laws are contrary to the interests of the other classes, because it's a zero-sum game. They call obedience to these laws "justice". This is the sense in which justice is the interests of the stronger.

Since these laws are not in the interest of the non-ruling classes, members of the non-ruling classes who obey these laws, in circumstances where they would not get caught disobeying them, are just suckers and losers. The smart thing to do is to obey the laws only when you think you'll get caught. This is the sense in which injustice is more advantageous than justice for the non-ruling class.

And when you look closely at the laws that the ruling class has made, and you look at their conduct, you'll find that the ruling class has exempted themselves from those laws, in practice if not in theory. If you're poor and steal a small amount of money, you are punished harshly, but if you're rich and powerful and steal a great sum of money, you get at most a slap on the wrist. But really the rich person is doing the same thing as the poor person, and if you wanted to be consistent you'd call it "injustice". This in sense in which injustice is more advantageous for the ruling class as well.

The key assumption of the cynical view is that the laws that are in the interest of the ruling class are contrary to the interests of the non-ruling classes. There is no common good that's in the interests of both the ruling and non-ruling classes. But Socrates correctly points out that even bands of thieves have to have rules to enable them to work together. So the rules set out by the leader of the thieves, which would be "justice" according to the cynical thesis, are also in the interest of the rest of the thieves.

So the question naturally arises, can we have a set of rules or laws that works for everyone in larger groups? What about at the largest societal groups that share the same laws? For us today the largest group would be the nation-state, but in ancient Greece the largest group would the city.

Expand full comment
Patrick Grafton-Cardwell's avatar

One point to make about Thrasymachus (and his inability to recognize his own contradictions) has to do with your point about the form of Plato's communication. Plato is working with characters in a dialectical context and takes seriously the states of their own souls and relationship to justice as he's exploring in the dialogue the nature of justice in the soul. So he's doing as much (or sometimes more) showing than he is telling or explaining. With Thrasymachus this means showing someone who is upsettingly ruled by his passions (like a wild beast) and so unable to recognize what are actually obvious (to the reader) moves to make for a rationale interlocutor.

Another point I made when I did a summary of Book I a little bit ago is that I think it's significant that Plato's Socrates takes someone like Thrasymachus so seriously. It's one of the achievements of the Republic as a whole to take the "immoralist" as really worth listening to and try to give a vision of the happy life consisting of virtue that doesn't beg the question against them.

https://substack.com/@patrickegc/p-149540501

Expand full comment
58 more comments...

No posts