Jared, thanks for the explanation. I appreciate and applaud your efforts in building a community around philosophy and literature.
I agree with David, these selections are always timely. All great works of philosophy and literature address the human condition, at least some important aspects of it. As a result, it is inevitable that common themes will emerge, as long as they are read thoughtfully. Zhuangzi is no exception at all!
I just want to say a word about translations of Zhuangzi. I have compared all available translations with the original; most are to be avoided at all cost as they try to sound "poetic" at the expense of meaning. There are two exceptions. The one you picked, by Chris Fraser, is one of them; and it's relatively cheap. The other one, which I think is even a bit better than Fraser, is the translation by Brook Ziporyn; but it is more expensive. Ziporyn has two versions: the Complete and the Essential, which only contains 23 of the 33 chapters; however, that's more than enough for an understanding of Zhuangzi as most of the omitted ones are commonly considered as written by someone else; the bonus is that it contains close to 100 pages of important commentaries by important traditional Chinese scholars. But it's still more expensive than Fraser.
One idea for you to think about. I wonder if there could be some type of culminating activity or discussion at the end of each read-along that focuses on two questions: how does it tie in with the other books we've read in the past? and in what ways does it change our own thinking or way of life? I just feel that a more palpable sense of closure would be nice before moving on.
I was just about to reply to the post asking if someone could list the chapters from Chris Fraser's translation so I could compare them to my copy of Ziporyn's complete writings. Does Fraser's keep the same general structure—Inner (1–7), Outer (8–22), and Miscellaneous (23–33)? If so would you say it's similar enough for me to follow along with the group? I've been collecting works on Taoism (since 2015 when a friend very thoughtfully gifted me her copy of The Tao of Pooh) so I'm open to any reason you'd suggest I read both.
Hunter, yes, Fraser follows the same chapter division as Ziporyn's Complete. In fact, this is the standard division almost universally-adopted by the mainstream scholarly tradition in China for well over a thousand years. I don't see any problems with you following along with the group with Ziporyn. On the contrary, it'll be advantageous to have someone with a different translation that can help the group deepen its understanding. My only "complaint" about the Ziporyn Complete is that it abandons the lengthy section of traditional commentary that is in the Essential.
It's my personal opinion that the top priority in understanding Zhuangzi is a achieve a solid mastery of the seven Inner Chapters, which, read as a whole, form a coherent expression of his philosophy as a unified outlook on life. Therefore, I only read the other chapters casually. Also, the authorship of those chapters is highly questionable.
While the readings have been timely, some of these selections are *always* timely, especially Plato. Thanks for not being heavy-handed with that though, there is too much noise out there and this is a good place to have an intellectual and spiritual reprieve from all of that.
Hey Jared, with next year's theme of technology in human lives, I know you love Wendell Berry and I would recommend we read "Why I Am Not Going to Buy a Computer." Maybe other essays from "What Are People For?" I've also heard about Paul Kingsnorth new book "Against the Machine: On the Unmaking of Humanity," which also sounds up this alley.
Pretty late commenting on this, but I wanted to say how much I appreciate the read alongs. Regrettably life got too busy for me to complete Plato and I won’t be able to commit to the summer books for the same reason, but I really enjoyed it and hope to return for Aristotle. Thank you for organizing and making this work available for free. I look forward to future reading!
Thanks for the insights. I am looking forward to the upcoming readings. I'm also genuinely curious as to the texts you will select for next year, especially as you've returned to this topic more than once.
I’ve come across you by chance here Jared but I’m hoping to join the Ishiguro read & see how I get on. I read The Remains of the Day when it first won the Booker and have always been intrigued by the Tavistock connection as I’ve lived in the town or very nearby for over forty years.
I look forward to the next two books and next year’s readings. As we are forced to interact with increasing levels of technology, I think your reading selections will be timely and useful in thinking critically about our culture and technology usage and evaluating what our individual and collective engagement threshold will be.
Jared, thanks for the explanation. I appreciate and applaud your efforts in building a community around philosophy and literature.
I agree with David, these selections are always timely. All great works of philosophy and literature address the human condition, at least some important aspects of it. As a result, it is inevitable that common themes will emerge, as long as they are read thoughtfully. Zhuangzi is no exception at all!
I just want to say a word about translations of Zhuangzi. I have compared all available translations with the original; most are to be avoided at all cost as they try to sound "poetic" at the expense of meaning. There are two exceptions. The one you picked, by Chris Fraser, is one of them; and it's relatively cheap. The other one, which I think is even a bit better than Fraser, is the translation by Brook Ziporyn; but it is more expensive. Ziporyn has two versions: the Complete and the Essential, which only contains 23 of the 33 chapters; however, that's more than enough for an understanding of Zhuangzi as most of the omitted ones are commonly considered as written by someone else; the bonus is that it contains close to 100 pages of important commentaries by important traditional Chinese scholars. But it's still more expensive than Fraser.
One idea for you to think about. I wonder if there could be some type of culminating activity or discussion at the end of each read-along that focuses on two questions: how does it tie in with the other books we've read in the past? and in what ways does it change our own thinking or way of life? I just feel that a more palpable sense of closure would be nice before moving on.
I was just about to reply to the post asking if someone could list the chapters from Chris Fraser's translation so I could compare them to my copy of Ziporyn's complete writings. Does Fraser's keep the same general structure—Inner (1–7), Outer (8–22), and Miscellaneous (23–33)? If so would you say it's similar enough for me to follow along with the group? I've been collecting works on Taoism (since 2015 when a friend very thoughtfully gifted me her copy of The Tao of Pooh) so I'm open to any reason you'd suggest I read both.
Thanks in advance!
Hunter, yes, Fraser follows the same chapter division as Ziporyn's Complete. In fact, this is the standard division almost universally-adopted by the mainstream scholarly tradition in China for well over a thousand years. I don't see any problems with you following along with the group with Ziporyn. On the contrary, it'll be advantageous to have someone with a different translation that can help the group deepen its understanding. My only "complaint" about the Ziporyn Complete is that it abandons the lengthy section of traditional commentary that is in the Essential.
It's my personal opinion that the top priority in understanding Zhuangzi is a achieve a solid mastery of the seven Inner Chapters, which, read as a whole, form a coherent expression of his philosophy as a unified outlook on life. Therefore, I only read the other chapters casually. Also, the authorship of those chapters is highly questionable.
While the readings have been timely, some of these selections are *always* timely, especially Plato. Thanks for not being heavy-handed with that though, there is too much noise out there and this is a good place to have an intellectual and spiritual reprieve from all of that.
Hey Jared, with next year's theme of technology in human lives, I know you love Wendell Berry and I would recommend we read "Why I Am Not Going to Buy a Computer." Maybe other essays from "What Are People For?" I've also heard about Paul Kingsnorth new book "Against the Machine: On the Unmaking of Humanity," which also sounds up this alley.
Pretty late commenting on this, but I wanted to say how much I appreciate the read alongs. Regrettably life got too busy for me to complete Plato and I won’t be able to commit to the summer books for the same reason, but I really enjoyed it and hope to return for Aristotle. Thank you for organizing and making this work available for free. I look forward to future reading!
Looking forward to read these last books of the year!
That’ll be some fun reads. I’ll make a note to pick them up.
Thanks for the insights. I am looking forward to the upcoming readings. I'm also genuinely curious as to the texts you will select for next year, especially as you've returned to this topic more than once.
Looking forward to joining the read-along in Aug! Will be too busy in July for The Remains of the Day, but will make time for Zhuangzi.
I’ve come across you by chance here Jared but I’m hoping to join the Ishiguro read & see how I get on. I read The Remains of the Day when it first won the Booker and have always been intrigued by the Tavistock connection as I’ve lived in the town or very nearby for over forty years.
I look forward to the next two books and next year’s readings. As we are forced to interact with increasing levels of technology, I think your reading selections will be timely and useful in thinking critically about our culture and technology usage and evaluating what our individual and collective engagement threshold will be.
I’d love to be part of this reading along.
I’ve always loved the film and can share one or two insights from a featurette.