There's also an interesting contrast in the things the two societies find shameful that shows up in Shevek's conversation with Oiie and his children. The Urrasti are squeamish about bodily waste and sex, for instance, but the Odonians are squeamish about propertarianism and government (the shameful and grotesque portrayal of propertarianism also shows up in their use of "illness" and "sickness" as metaphors for it). You see this attitude in Tirin's story, and in how Shevek won't even entertain Bedap's unsavory idea that Odonian society does rely, however unofficially, on authoritarian power dynamics. I think this is also part of why Shevek gives his overly simplistic explanation of his society to Oiie's children. He himself seems to have retained a childlike, almost puritanical idealism about how the Odonian society should function. He continues to deny even to himself that a society of any size and complexity does seem to give rise to hierarchies and disparate power distributions.
I really liked the contrast of issues of education between the two different planets. On Annares, progress is silenced by the opinion of the majority. On Urras, I believe that progress is poisoned by two things: 1) Knowledge is not sought after for the sake of knowledge, but as a means to an end. 2) Progress its self loses meaning (Shevek feels like all the work he had done was nothing of importance)
The problems on Urras that are highlighted really resonate with me as a student, for obvious reasons. I love to learn about philosophy, but my mind is constantly polluted with how I can USE this knowledge to earn money. I don't just want to use my knowledge to make money, or just for the sake of progress. I want to contribute meaningfully, not just contribute to contribute.
I haven't read chapter 6 yet, but chapters 4 and 5 are a pair. Compare Oiie's family life with Shevek's, or with any other Anarresti family. If on Anarres there is a family like Oiie's, I've missed it. I am under the impression children are raised in clutches and some are visited by parents and others aren't. Is "family" one of those words that never made it over to Pravic from Iota?
For me Shevek meeting his mother is the most powerful passage in the book so far. Regret fills both their minds, and I wonder if, without le Guin ever saying it outright, lack of family and family ties are the biggest differences between Urrasti and Anarresti? I hope he gets to spend some time with his mother.
I said earlier melancholy surrounds Shevek and follows him wherever he goes. Does he ever laugh? He strikes me as a profoundly unhappy person. Do any Odonians laugh? Are they happy? How do they learn to form intimate bonds if there is no family nuclear unit? Is any Odonian intimately close to another Odonian? Shevek suggests it's himself that is the problem, but I don't know about that. I don't see anyone with close friends. Everyone is like an acquaintance at most -- genitals bumping in the night. I wonder why no one in the Oiie family asks about family during Shevek's explanation of Anarresti society?
Everyone on Anarres is equal or so they say, but there are people who are more influential than others, and that influence translates into power over the less influential. Sabul is a good example. He's using/abusing Shevek, and he can because of who he is. And if Shevek gave him too much grief he could destroy him and his career. And then there are the perks the scientists get, and for all I know all the residents of Abbenay get, like daily desserts. So, I guess everyone is equal but some people are more equal than others. (Sorry, but I had to do it.)
And Urras is no paradise either. Well for some, it's paradise. Governments are powerful and curtail individual rights. Anarres has no government, so people are free, but maybe not so free as a first glance might indicate. There is the influence of the influential and the peer pressure that forces most Anarrestis to conform. Maybe the difference is more the difference between De Jure and De facto than anything else.
And Urras? There is the conspicuous consumerism that makes Shevek sick. I admit to liking my toys, so I'm not conspicuous consumerism's biggest enemy. I've gotten quite comfortable dabbling in its wares. I would not make a good Anarresti; I do make a good Urrasti.
But then the Odonians of Anarres seem to have too little, nothing beyond essentials. Quite the contrast. And those supplies Anarres gets from Urras, that Anarrestis hate? Perhaps they need them more than those who are in the know let on. Just maybe they need those electronics, those fine machinery parts, and those plants to survive.
There isn't as much to say about Urasti that's revealing because I already know what Urras is like: I live there. Tell me something I don't know about Urrasti.
I don't know about 'family', but it seems like children can be kept by parents as a form of bonding, but that this doesn't always happen (and that eventually every child moves to a dormitory). Parents visit, if they want and are able. We should keep an eye out on how the relationship with his mother is explored.
Odonians laugh and are happy! The party scenes with his friends are the best examples.
1) I posted in the chat thread but will do so here that reading about the groupthink ostracization you mention towards the end here on the same day I read Socrates' apology was illuminating insofar as this has been a longstanding concern of philosophers concerned with the social order.
2) One interesting thing that stuck out to me was the varying degrees of "patriotism." Between the countries on Urras; between Urras and Annares; and between Cetians and the Terrans & Hainish. I like how as you mentioned Atro talks about Cetian "superiority" but also reveals a bit of an inferiority complex, just wanting to be seen as *at least* an equal.
3) Finally, you mention a weakness in Shevek's responses to certain questions but I sort of find that to be a strength. From the narrative standpoint, it helps keep the book as informative and philosophically intriguing without being overly didactic. As a character trait, it aids in the paradoxical nature Shevek's mental state, and might indicate that, despite being a committed revolutionary, he can't necessarily explain everything, hasn't thought it all the way through, on so doing might come to question it, or is in some other such way just uncritically parroting Odonian principles. The even chapters are more obviously the "bildungsroman" but the odd chapters show that he's clearly still developing in late adulthood.
There's also an interesting contrast in the things the two societies find shameful that shows up in Shevek's conversation with Oiie and his children. The Urrasti are squeamish about bodily waste and sex, for instance, but the Odonians are squeamish about propertarianism and government (the shameful and grotesque portrayal of propertarianism also shows up in their use of "illness" and "sickness" as metaphors for it). You see this attitude in Tirin's story, and in how Shevek won't even entertain Bedap's unsavory idea that Odonian society does rely, however unofficially, on authoritarian power dynamics. I think this is also part of why Shevek gives his overly simplistic explanation of his society to Oiie's children. He himself seems to have retained a childlike, almost puritanical idealism about how the Odonian society should function. He continues to deny even to himself that a society of any size and complexity does seem to give rise to hierarchies and disparate power distributions.
I really liked the contrast of issues of education between the two different planets. On Annares, progress is silenced by the opinion of the majority. On Urras, I believe that progress is poisoned by two things: 1) Knowledge is not sought after for the sake of knowledge, but as a means to an end. 2) Progress its self loses meaning (Shevek feels like all the work he had done was nothing of importance)
The problems on Urras that are highlighted really resonate with me as a student, for obvious reasons. I love to learn about philosophy, but my mind is constantly polluted with how I can USE this knowledge to earn money. I don't just want to use my knowledge to make money, or just for the sake of progress. I want to contribute meaningfully, not just contribute to contribute.
I haven't read chapter 6 yet, but chapters 4 and 5 are a pair. Compare Oiie's family life with Shevek's, or with any other Anarresti family. If on Anarres there is a family like Oiie's, I've missed it. I am under the impression children are raised in clutches and some are visited by parents and others aren't. Is "family" one of those words that never made it over to Pravic from Iota?
For me Shevek meeting his mother is the most powerful passage in the book so far. Regret fills both their minds, and I wonder if, without le Guin ever saying it outright, lack of family and family ties are the biggest differences between Urrasti and Anarresti? I hope he gets to spend some time with his mother.
I said earlier melancholy surrounds Shevek and follows him wherever he goes. Does he ever laugh? He strikes me as a profoundly unhappy person. Do any Odonians laugh? Are they happy? How do they learn to form intimate bonds if there is no family nuclear unit? Is any Odonian intimately close to another Odonian? Shevek suggests it's himself that is the problem, but I don't know about that. I don't see anyone with close friends. Everyone is like an acquaintance at most -- genitals bumping in the night. I wonder why no one in the Oiie family asks about family during Shevek's explanation of Anarresti society?
Everyone on Anarres is equal or so they say, but there are people who are more influential than others, and that influence translates into power over the less influential. Sabul is a good example. He's using/abusing Shevek, and he can because of who he is. And if Shevek gave him too much grief he could destroy him and his career. And then there are the perks the scientists get, and for all I know all the residents of Abbenay get, like daily desserts. So, I guess everyone is equal but some people are more equal than others. (Sorry, but I had to do it.)
And Urras is no paradise either. Well for some, it's paradise. Governments are powerful and curtail individual rights. Anarres has no government, so people are free, but maybe not so free as a first glance might indicate. There is the influence of the influential and the peer pressure that forces most Anarrestis to conform. Maybe the difference is more the difference between De Jure and De facto than anything else.
And Urras? There is the conspicuous consumerism that makes Shevek sick. I admit to liking my toys, so I'm not conspicuous consumerism's biggest enemy. I've gotten quite comfortable dabbling in its wares. I would not make a good Anarresti; I do make a good Urrasti.
But then the Odonians of Anarres seem to have too little, nothing beyond essentials. Quite the contrast. And those supplies Anarres gets from Urras, that Anarrestis hate? Perhaps they need them more than those who are in the know let on. Just maybe they need those electronics, those fine machinery parts, and those plants to survive.
There isn't as much to say about Urasti that's revealing because I already know what Urras is like: I live there. Tell me something I don't know about Urrasti.
I don't know about 'family', but it seems like children can be kept by parents as a form of bonding, but that this doesn't always happen (and that eventually every child moves to a dormitory). Parents visit, if they want and are able. We should keep an eye out on how the relationship with his mother is explored.
Odonians laugh and are happy! The party scenes with his friends are the best examples.
1) I posted in the chat thread but will do so here that reading about the groupthink ostracization you mention towards the end here on the same day I read Socrates' apology was illuminating insofar as this has been a longstanding concern of philosophers concerned with the social order.
2) One interesting thing that stuck out to me was the varying degrees of "patriotism." Between the countries on Urras; between Urras and Annares; and between Cetians and the Terrans & Hainish. I like how as you mentioned Atro talks about Cetian "superiority" but also reveals a bit of an inferiority complex, just wanting to be seen as *at least* an equal.
3) Finally, you mention a weakness in Shevek's responses to certain questions but I sort of find that to be a strength. From the narrative standpoint, it helps keep the book as informative and philosophically intriguing without being overly didactic. As a character trait, it aids in the paradoxical nature Shevek's mental state, and might indicate that, despite being a committed revolutionary, he can't necessarily explain everything, hasn't thought it all the way through, on so doing might come to question it, or is in some other such way just uncritically parroting Odonian principles. The even chapters are more obviously the "bildungsroman" but the odd chapters show that he's clearly still developing in late adulthood.