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Kirsten's avatar

There's also an interesting contrast in the things the two societies find shameful that shows up in Shevek's conversation with Oiie and his children. The Urrasti are squeamish about bodily waste and sex, for instance, but the Odonians are squeamish about propertarianism and government (the shameful and grotesque portrayal of propertarianism also shows up in their use of "illness" and "sickness" as metaphors for it). You see this attitude in Tirin's story, and in how Shevek won't even entertain Bedap's unsavory idea that Odonian society does rely, however unofficially, on authoritarian power dynamics. I think this is also part of why Shevek gives his overly simplistic explanation of his society to Oiie's children. He himself seems to have retained a childlike, almost puritanical idealism about how the Odonian society should function. He continues to deny even to himself that a society of any size and complexity does seem to give rise to hierarchies and disparate power distributions.

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David's avatar

1) I posted in the chat thread but will do so here that reading about the groupthink ostracization you mention towards the end here on the same day I read Socrates' apology was illuminating insofar as this has been a longstanding concern of philosophers concerned with the social order.

2) One interesting thing that stuck out to me was the varying degrees of "patriotism." Between the countries on Urras; between Urras and Annares; and between Cetians and the Terrans & Hainish. I like how as you mentioned Atro talks about Cetian "superiority" but also reveals a bit of an inferiority complex, just wanting to be seen as *at least* an equal.

3) Finally, you mention a weakness in Shevek's responses to certain questions but I sort of find that to be a strength. From the narrative standpoint, it helps keep the book as informative and philosophically intriguing without being overly didactic. As a character trait, it aids in the paradoxical nature Shevek's mental state, and might indicate that, despite being a committed revolutionary, he can't necessarily explain everything, hasn't thought it all the way through, on so doing might come to question it, or is in some other such way just uncritically parroting Odonian principles. The even chapters are more obviously the "bildungsroman" but the odd chapters show that he's clearly still developing in late adulthood.

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